Post by llecha on Mar 5, 2014 20:01:22 GMT -5
Contributed by Pll
written by: conference
Evolve <Evil Empire>
As I see Sardonic bouncing around on here, who I know has more knowledge on Ropists than I do, I thought I would start the ball rolling on the Question and Answer section. I spoke with him some on The Brotherhood forum about this issue....
After much work with Ropists I have come to a few conclusions..
1. I was making my initial speed entirely too low, I found to be effective it has to be about .75 of Agility.
2. I have also found that with a height advantage I can go outside and win rounds on points.
3. Ropes against a Clincher is a horrible idea.
4. Dancers are d**n near impossible to beat with a Ropist, that could be my poor fight planning though heh.
5. Making a starting Ropist in the higher weight classes is almost impossible, simply not enough AP's to go around.
Now, of course I could be mistaken on any of these points.
How many Ropist managers are out there? I know Sardonic has knowledge of them and Ambivalence also makes good Ropists from what I have heard...perhaps I should look up his Gym and see what I can learn from watching his fights.
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jimsardonic
1. I was making my initial speed entirely too low, I found to be effective it has to be about .75 of Agility.
This depends on the rest of the build. There's a few different types of ropist. I tend to like the ones that are STR = SPD = 2/3*AGL. So, something like:
STR: 15 KP: 0
SPD: 15 AGL: 22
CHN: 8 CON: 14
This build was recommended to me when I was new, and I still use variations of it to this day. More often than not, though, I keep SPD about equal to STR. Going any lower makes the fighter too slow, and going any higher makes it a short dancer.
admin said:
2. I have also found that with a height advantage I can go outside and win rounds on points.
You can, for sure. In some matchups, (counter) might be plausible too -- but I would use that sparingly. In most cases, (ring) and (ropes) will be best any time you have a height advantage because your greatest AP Advantage should be in AGL.
admin said:
3. Ropes against a Clincher is a horrible idea.
Regionally, yes. The reason being is that the (ropes) advantage is capped at dropping the opponent to 8 AGL. Most clincher builds will start with 8 or less, so by using ropes you're merely giving yourself -1 AGL, and having no effect on the opponent.
However, using (ring) against clinchers will give you a huge boost to your AGL.
admin said:
4. Dancers are d**n near impossible to beat with a Ropist, that could be my poor fight planning though heh.
Dancers aren't too bad, it's the sissies that are hard to beat. You're looking at a difference between:
Straw
(From Unforgiven's Help Page)
Sissy:
STR: 3 KP: 0
SPD: 12 AGL: 21
CHN: 10 CON: 15
You may also see variations that have 1 point of KP to prevent body-allouting, but for the purpose of the explanation, it's not important.
Dancer:
STR: 9 KP: 0
SPD: 16 AGL: 16
CHN: 9 CON: 15
KP Dancers are a whole different beast.
Ropist:
STR: 14 KP: 0
SPD: 14 AGL: 20
CHN: 8 CON: 13
Unless there is a lot of KP in your region, you can usually get away with starting a ropist with 7-8 chin. This allows you to put more points in the attributes that count (STR,SPD,AGL), and makes for a more efficient fighter. Conditioning at 13 is the same sort of deal -- I find it generally best to start with 13, but some prefer 14. As long as you keep an eye on your tactics and don't over fatigue your fighter, 13 should be fine.
Ropist vs Dancer
Looking at the AP distribution, you'll have both the STR and AGL advantage. This, obviously, is good for the endurance game. He'll be able to use (counter) and (outside), as he'll be taller. Most often, the dancer will slap with lines like 5/1/14 (outside), 6/1/13 (outside), 7/1/12 (outside), and so on.
Sometimes, you'll get one that likes to scrap a bit, and he might use lines like 4B/8/8 (counter), and such. Scouting your opponent is important to know the best way to beat them. Be sure to look for KP on dancers, because that is the most popular variety currently.
You have the availability to use (clinch), (inside), (ring), and of course, (ropes). You'll probably benefit most from (clinch) and (inside), and that may be the way to go -- especially in early fights to disguise your fighter's build. Using good tactics, you should be able to win this fight just on being the more endurance-efficient fighter.
Ropist vs Sissy
They've got a massive STR advantage, however, they're one dimensional fighters. They don't have options, like the rest of the builds do -- they slap. Knowing this is the key to beating them.
Open up _HARD_.
1) 5B/10/5 (inside)
Keep the score close, because if you give them the chance to run away, they'll certainly take it. With 3 STR and 1 POW, they're not going to do a lot of damage to you.
2) 6B/10/4 (inside)
if score < 0 then 8/8/4 (inside)
You can even throw in a few 5B/10/5 (allout) lines if you're sure they don't have any KP. I used to struggle with this matchup for a long time, until I realized just how much you can open up against them.
admin said:
5. Making a starting Ropist in the higher weight classes is almost impossible, simply not enough AP's to go around.
_Starting_ with a ropist is pretty much impossible. However, shaping a fighter into a ropist is very viable, and by the higher rating(status) fights, you could very well have a full-fledged ropist.
admin said:
How many Ropist managers are out there? I know Sardonic has knowledge of them and Ambivalence also makes good Ropists from what I have heard...perhaps I should look up his Gym and see what I can learn from watching his fights.
Ambiv is retired, currently, I thought. If not, tell him to pop into #webl sometime -- we haven't seen him in there in ages.
The rest of you, as well, feel free to pop in. We often have good discussions with World Title managers on topics ranging from fighter creation to scouting. It's an excellent learning resource.
As far as good ropist managers, I'd say the ones I respect the most are:
-- Great Gnu`s Garage (WILBOO Inc.)[BTP]
He was my mentor on ropists early on. He's _very_ good with them, and is a good guy.
-- Degeneration - X WTA Inc
DX is an excellent ropist manager as well, and a good resource for learning about KP Balanced. I've not spoken with him personally, though, it is on my list of "people to talk to".
-- Lambs Arena [The Brotherhood]
Lambs is the only active Central manager that I don't have a win against, and his ropists are a big part of the reason why. I can't figure him out for the life of me, and he's quite obviously doing something right.
-- Jono (UK)
I was initially supposed to take him on in a clan battle a few months ago, and thus, scouted his gym. I was impressed with some of the victories and tactics he used with his ropists. He's quite good with them, though, I've never spoken to him about it.
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italiano
I'm more of a balanced manager. I can use and win with all fighter types, pretty effectively. At the moment I am trying to bring a KP Ropist up through. I know they aren't really efficient, but it's an experiment I wanted to try out...to see how it goes.
Sardonic pretty much covered everything about ropists. Not much else to say about it. Just this one thing though:
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jimsardonic said:
Ropist vs Sissy
They've got a massive STR advantage, however, they're one dimensional fighters. They don't have options, like the rest of the builds do -- they slap. Knowing this is the key to beating them.
This line kind of confused me
, until I read it again: 
At first, what I thought you were saying was that the "sissy" had a massive STR advantage. But then I realized you were refering to the ropist.
Last Edit: Nov 5, 2006 at 8:33am by italiano
Italiano ~SoS~
If it doesn't matter who wins or loses then why do they keep score...
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Evolve <Evil Empire>
I thought that at first as well.
Most of the Ropists I made early, and even some of the ones I carry now, had KP despite the conventional wisdom being that they should not have it and I actually managed to score quite a few knockouts with them.
I recently learned from the South forum that I was using the wrong scoring lines when using the Ropes style, I was running Ring type scoring lines instead of concentrating on slugging and pounding when in the ropes style.
I also did take the advice, well, actually I tried it and then got the same advice later, of using inside vs. Sissy's or Dancer's and it worked rather well, especially to try and slow them down.
And I am going to look into some of those other Gyms you listed for Ropists, looking at other managers who are successful will surely help me out.
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WR
Evolve,
When building a ropist, I do not build pure ropists. I find it easier to win (early on) if you build an Agile Balance fighter (which has very similar in build to a ropist), as I think it gives you a few more options as a manager early on. The agile balanced has no real weakness, and they seem to dish out damage, as well as control score.
AGILE BALANCED:
ST 12 KP 0
SP 13 AG 15
CH 9 CN 13
Cuts VL, Height 5'07"
~VS~
ROPIST:
ST 10 KP 0
SP 12 AG 18
CH 8 CN 14
Cuts VL, Height 5'07
With a height advantage, I rarely go outside on a shorter opponent. The key for me, is if my agility is generally +4 pts more than my opp, I will use ropes (unless my opp is a clincher). If it is less than 4, I will be more defensive, and slug with ring, counter, or no style.
Yes, ropes vs clinch is a horrible idea. Ropes lowers your agl which a bad thing against a clincher. Use Ring, it will save you some IP's.
ropists vs dancers:
What Sardonic Said.
Also, I saw you post in the South Forum, if your needing some FP help, just shoot me an e-mail at jvgrippin@sbcglobal.net
Making Ropists at higher weight classes:
This is why I generally make Agile Balanced fighters in lieu of Ropists at Higher weight classes. As you move up in status, and gain ap's you start to build a ropist. However, I believe in starting off as an agile balanced. I wouldn't try to build a ropist in cruisers or heavy's though. I think light heavy is about the absolute limit for this style of fighter, and light heavy may be a stretch. I run the majority of my fighters at light heavy to super lightweight classes.
As for gyms in the south that run ropists right now, look at Bad Bit. Bad Bit probably is doing the most with this fighter style in the South in my opinion.
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Evolve <Evil Empire>
Yes, I learned about making Heavyweight Ropists rather quickly although I do have one who started out rather promising, 3-0-0 and a few at 2-1-0. Granted that is early in their career though. I have heard the advice before to make Ropists balanced and then move into the Ropist build and by three wins you can be at Status/Rank 5 which would give you, probably, enough agility points to make better use of a Ropist strategy.
Out of curiosity though, why don't you use Outside against Shorter Fighters if you have the height advantage?
Someone else told me to use no Style if I was not sure of the Agility advantage, truthfully I had never thought of it before that.
And I think my problem with getting into the higher status fights, or winning them, is not efficiently scouting out my opponents enough or using pre made fight plans for too long. One fight plan against clinchers doesn't work, well, it does early, but as you advance it stops working. I have a few Top Ten fighters in Rookies so I am not doing horribly and had a few fair fighters in South before I pulled out of South.
When you guys fight against Ropists how do you fight plan to beat them? I generally find that many people slap the ropist to a win due to the speed advantage, I also have had clinchers wear me down so far endurance wise that my fighter wanted to just stay in the corner between rounds heh.
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italiano
admin said:
Out of curiosity though, why don't you use Outside against Shorter Fighters if you have the height advantage?
It's not that you can't use it, but if they are going to the body, for instance, going outside will tire you out quickly. And once you are at a disadvantage in the endurance war, you're gonna have a hard time catching up. And while your slapping he's winning rounds with power punching, which makes you open up even more and take even more damage...ropes or ring should be your main options.
admin said:
Someone else told me to use no Style if I was not sure of the Agility advantage, truthfully I had never thought of it before that.
Yeah that sounds right. The Ropist should have a marginal agility advantage, that is, 5 or more points. Any uncertainty and the ropes (style) would get you killed.
admin said:
And I think my problem with getting into the higher status fights, or winning them, is not efficiently scouting out my opponents enough or using pre made fight plans for too long. One fight plan against clinchers doesn't work, well, it does early, but as you advance it stops working. I have a few Top Ten fighters in Rookies so I am not doing horribly and had a few fair fighters in South before I pulled out of South.
That's gonna happen, unfortunately all I can do is refer you to the Help Pages. Learn the ins and outs of scouting and you'll be able to win the fights status (10) and higher.
admin said:
When you guys fight against Ropists how do you fight plan to beat them? I generally find that many people slap the ropist to a win due to the speed advantage, I also have had clinchers wear me down so far endurance wise that my fighter wanted to just stay in the corner between rounds heh.
When I fight Bad Bit and/or Great Gnu, the matchups are usually in my favor. A lot of my fighters have KP, which will or should beat any endurance fighter. When I don't have KP I have a high strength advantage (slugger or agile slugger), and fairly good agility and speed. My main goal is to be able to win the endurance war without losing rounds. With this I'll usually win the first or the first couple of rounds and then I go to the body. I will occassionally, but rarely slap for a points win. However, that is after scouting...that may not work against another ropist manager.
Last Edit: Nov 6, 2006 at 8:45am by italiano
Italiano ~SoS~
If it doesn't matter who wins or loses then why do they keep score...
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jimsardonic
admin said:
Out of curiosity though, why don't you use Outside against Shorter Fighters if you have the height advantage?
Ropists are made to be endurance fighters. They often don't have the speed for slapping, and by doing so, you're taking away from your chances to gain the endurance advantage and win. Also, if you're way taller than the opponent, you've probably got a _very_ sizeable AGL advantage -- which would make it more beneficial to use ring or ropes.
admin said:
Someone else told me to use no Style if I was not sure of the Agility advantage, truthfully I had never thought of it before that.
It's a good idea, because no style has no penalties. If you were to use ropes improperly, you would get -1 AGL with no benefit. Ring would give +1 AGL, but, you would incur that extra 1 point of fatigue per round... and that will certainly add up.
admin said:
And I think my problem with getting into the higher status fights, or winning them, is not efficiently scouting out my opponents enough or using pre made fight plans for too long.
This could be. Don't let yourself get predictable... people will find tendencies, and abuse them. This is true throughout your webl career. I recently had a series of fights with a manager, and I noticed that in every fight, he rested in the 6th round. So, the next time we fought, I prepared a 5B/10/5 (allout) for that round. You don't want that to happen to you.
admin said:
One fight plan against clinchers doesn't work, well, it does early, but as you advance it stops working. I have a few Top Ten fighters in Rookies so I am not doing horribly and had a few fair fighters in South before I pulled out of South.
You're doing well, and it's obvious that you want to learn. That's all that matters
admin said:
When you guys fight against Ropists how do you fight plan to beat them? I generally find that many people slap the ropist to a win due to the speed advantage, I also have had clinchers wear me down so far endurance wise that my fighter wanted to just stay in the corner between rounds heh.
It depends on the matchup and manager tendencies, really. Usually, if you have KP, you want to flash as early as possible. With a Dancer or balanced type of fighter, you can certainly try the slapping route -- though, you'll probably need to rest at some point in the fight or risk being KO'd with a good amount of IP's. Sluggers, I either hope for a mistake in the build of the fighter or in the manager's fight plan. I've not run a clincher in ages, so I couldn't be too sure -- but I'd imagine it's just a matter of being aggressive enough to overcome the AGL advantage. Most ropists use very low chin, and thus, you might be able to score a KO with (inside) depending on the build.
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Evolve <Evil Empire>
That's gonna happen, unfortunately all I can do is refer you to the Help Pages. Learn the ins and outs of scouting and you'll be able to win the fights status (10) and higher.
I have been putting much more work into scouting of late. I sat down one night and ran through the simulator a bunch of times to get a statistical viewpoint on the number of punches thrown depending on your aggression so I could get a good idea of what AGG line my opponent was using. Then I read on another help page that you could divide the number of punches thrown by 9 and get a basic idea. But I did find out that past AGG 6 the standard range between the punch numbers changes dramatically. There is more variation, for example you could run AGG 6 and AGG 7 and in some rounds you will actually throw the same number of punches. Actually, in a few simulations, AGG 8 dipped down into AGG 6 punch stat numbers. That helped me a good deal because I want to use the lowest aggression possible to win the rounds and I really wanted to know how much variation there was in the number of punches thrown.
Your mention about predictability was exactly right, I had the same rest line, always in Round Seven, and somebody caught onto that and all-outed me and KO'ed me. Then it later worked in my advantage because I put a high power line in just for Round Seven and moved my rest line and caught someone trying to catch me.
I have collected an enormous amount of information on Ropists from a number of people and I have it all jotted down in a notebook, I am thinking of compiling it all into one form and posting it somewhere. Of course, none of the information is mine, but it is all good information none-the-less.
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usagi
I'm 53-30 against Degeneration X. We chatted often when he started playing WeBL. It's great to see him accomplish what he has. He's like the younger brother who has surpassed the elder.
I stopped using ropists when I retired a couple of years ago. My gym record pretty much reflects what I did with them and that was before changes to ropes. The most difficult match up was against KP sissies, especially run by skilled managers. I prefer running strong, very heavy build dancers now. If you run them right, you can make them look like balanced sluggers. Plus fatigue isn’t as big an issue, which means feint can be used more efficiently.
I also kept a three ring binder with each of my match-ups. I had a section for each manager I faced, the fight, the fight plan used and the result. It was a great way to see trends.
And don't be predictable. Here's an example of the way I use a rest/conditional round (slugger vs balance slugger).
1) 5B/8/7 (ring);
3) 3B/8/9 (ring);
3) if endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 6) then 4B/8/8 (ring);
3) if endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 4) then 5B/8/7 (ring);
3) if endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 2) then 5B/10/5 (ring);
3) if mystuns = 0 and score < 2 and endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 6) then 5B/8/7 (ring);
3) if mystuns = 0 and score < 2 and endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 4) then 6B/7/7 (ring);
3) if mystuns = 0 and score < 2 and endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 2) then 5B/9/6 (inside);
3) if opp < strong and endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 6) then 4B/9/7 (ring);
3) if opp < strong and endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 4) then 5B/9/6 (ring);
3) if opp < strong and endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 2) then 5B/9/6 (inside);
3) if mystuns - (round - 1) > 2 and endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 6) then 4/8/8 (clinch)
3) if mystuns - (round - 1) > 2 and endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 4) then 5/8/7 (clinch)
3) if mystuns - (round - 1) > 2 and endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 2) then 5B/7/8 (ring)
6) 2B/1/8 (clinch);
6) if endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 4) and hisstuns > 1 then 5H/11/4 (inside);
6) if endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 4) and opp < strong then 5H/11/4 (inside);
6) if endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 4) and score < -1 then 5H/11/4 (inside);
6) if endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 4) and score > 2 then 5H/9/6 (inside);
7) 3B/8/9 (ring);
Notice in round 6 I will rest unless one of the conditionals are met, which means it may not always kick in. Reduces predictability. Sometimes I will but this in for round 5 or round 7. Keep it changing. Then per the above, round 7 was a static line too keep me from resting the rest of the fight. It's quite embarrassing when that happens.
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Evolve <Evil Empire>
I also keep up with my fights but I never thought of keeping one against other managers, I like that suggestion. I noticed you elected to go 6-4-2 on your conditional rounds, I usually see 5-4-3-2. Is there a reason why you use 6-4-2 instead?
And I agree that sissies are a monster to deal with, I still have problems with regular dancers but I am getting much closer to figuring them out.
And I really like the binder idea by the way, that is a good way to see if managers get predictable.
Thor bad to the bone gym
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Guest
I have to disagree with the statement you cant make ropist to start.
Check out Steve "Bad to the Bone" Erwin in the Bad to the bone gym.
I dont think I could make a good ropist with only 70 ap's in another weight class but in Straws were everyone wants to be a slugger or clincher it seems easy to make a Ropist and win with him.
To tell you the truth Im surprised more managers dont try this.
Of course alot will depend on your fp but to date Ive only used 2. I'll wait and surprise an alert manager soon. =)
Thor...
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jimsardonic
I believe the discussion pertained to the Heavier weights. I run ropists at just about everything below cruisers... but CW's and HW's, I don't feel there's a good starting ropist build for.
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Evolve <Evil Empire>
Yead, Sardonic is right, I run all ropists and I haev no problems at lower weights, but at the higher weights it is difficult to make a starting ropist.
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usagi
I learned a while back, through getting predictable, you can write the same plan twice, but use different endurance conditionals; sometime 5/3/2 sometimes 6/4/2. My region has a lot of dancer/sissies so I can get down to 6 and still feel comfortable.
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DegenerationX
Usagi you are always a pain to beat in the game.
Inthe higher weight classes, nobody can make an effective ropist but they can build them INTO ropists.
You may even consider starting them with 7-8 chin and 13 conditioning depending on what type of fighters run rampant in your region. The 7 chin and 13 conditioning will give you +3 aps to put on strength, speed, and agility.
Try it.You may find this build may work better vs the sluggers and dancer types.
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jimsardonic
I fully agree with DX on this. I start almost all of my ropists at 7 chin and 13 CON.
Why?
End = POW * STR * sqrt(SPD * AGG)/ opp(DEF * AGL)
STR, SPD, and AGL are the only things that affect your damage done. The more points you have in these areas, the more damage you'll do.
It's also worth noting that extra points put into AGL is going to raise your effectiveness with (ropes), by maximizing the advantage given by it. Quite simply, a 6 point AGL advantage will do more than a 5 point AGL advantage.
If you can maintain efficiency in fighter design, as well as efficiency in fight planning -- you'll be hard pressed to lose against most non-kp guys shorter than you.
KP isn't a problem either, due to all the AGL. You can often get a big jump in AGL by using (ring) over ropes, and by not having a high KP and Chin, you're naturally better at dealing damage. It's just a matter of making sure you don't get KO'd, and let the build advantage do the work for you.
Against taller fighters, the extra STR you put in as opposed to having in CHN or CON helps. With a good build, a few clinch, inside, and allout lines should take down most sissies.
It's all about efficiency, regardless of build -- but if you do it right with a ropist, you'll do well.
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DegenerationX
Jim is right. Don't don't forget that with the serious agility ropists have, that they can pretty much eat kp balanced and flashers with the right fp styles.
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Evolve <Evil Empire>
I usually start my ropists with an 8 chin but if I can get away with 7 I could use the AP. I have learned to go inside on sissies but they still give me problems. As for the Heavyweight division, I have five heavyweight ropists and actually one of them is almost in the Top 10. I may have just gotten lucky so far though. Flashers are not usually a problem but I tend to give my ropists a little KP and I have been known to take a chance in rounds where flashers get aggressive and try and knock them out first, amazingly it actually works rather often.
What I have found with most of the people I fight so far is that by analyzing their fight plan, most of them are predictable. They use the same basic fight plans. Most clinchers change to inside once their opponent is low on endurance for example...
Good fighter build is important, but it seems to me that good scouting is more so.
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DegenerationX
Scouting is important,but a good ropist should be able to do well in any public region (except the specialty regions, they have their own builds that work for those regions in patrticular)
Efficiency, efficiency, efficiency. Just think that when you make your fps andyou should do well.
written by: conference
Evolve <Evil Empire>
As I see Sardonic bouncing around on here, who I know has more knowledge on Ropists than I do, I thought I would start the ball rolling on the Question and Answer section. I spoke with him some on The Brotherhood forum about this issue....
After much work with Ropists I have come to a few conclusions..
1. I was making my initial speed entirely too low, I found to be effective it has to be about .75 of Agility.
2. I have also found that with a height advantage I can go outside and win rounds on points.
3. Ropes against a Clincher is a horrible idea.
4. Dancers are d**n near impossible to beat with a Ropist, that could be my poor fight planning though heh.
5. Making a starting Ropist in the higher weight classes is almost impossible, simply not enough AP's to go around.
Now, of course I could be mistaken on any of these points.
How many Ropist managers are out there? I know Sardonic has knowledge of them and Ambivalence also makes good Ropists from what I have heard...perhaps I should look up his Gym and see what I can learn from watching his fights.
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jimsardonic
1. I was making my initial speed entirely too low, I found to be effective it has to be about .75 of Agility.
This depends on the rest of the build. There's a few different types of ropist. I tend to like the ones that are STR = SPD = 2/3*AGL. So, something like:
STR: 15 KP: 0
SPD: 15 AGL: 22
CHN: 8 CON: 14
This build was recommended to me when I was new, and I still use variations of it to this day. More often than not, though, I keep SPD about equal to STR. Going any lower makes the fighter too slow, and going any higher makes it a short dancer.
admin said:
2. I have also found that with a height advantage I can go outside and win rounds on points.
You can, for sure. In some matchups, (counter) might be plausible too -- but I would use that sparingly. In most cases, (ring) and (ropes) will be best any time you have a height advantage because your greatest AP Advantage should be in AGL.
admin said:
3. Ropes against a Clincher is a horrible idea.
Regionally, yes. The reason being is that the (ropes) advantage is capped at dropping the opponent to 8 AGL. Most clincher builds will start with 8 or less, so by using ropes you're merely giving yourself -1 AGL, and having no effect on the opponent.
However, using (ring) against clinchers will give you a huge boost to your AGL.
admin said:
4. Dancers are d**n near impossible to beat with a Ropist, that could be my poor fight planning though heh.
Dancers aren't too bad, it's the sissies that are hard to beat. You're looking at a difference between:
Straw
(From Unforgiven's Help Page)
Sissy:
STR: 3 KP: 0
SPD: 12 AGL: 21
CHN: 10 CON: 15
You may also see variations that have 1 point of KP to prevent body-allouting, but for the purpose of the explanation, it's not important.
Dancer:
STR: 9 KP: 0
SPD: 16 AGL: 16
CHN: 9 CON: 15
KP Dancers are a whole different beast.
Ropist:
STR: 14 KP: 0
SPD: 14 AGL: 20
CHN: 8 CON: 13
Unless there is a lot of KP in your region, you can usually get away with starting a ropist with 7-8 chin. This allows you to put more points in the attributes that count (STR,SPD,AGL), and makes for a more efficient fighter. Conditioning at 13 is the same sort of deal -- I find it generally best to start with 13, but some prefer 14. As long as you keep an eye on your tactics and don't over fatigue your fighter, 13 should be fine.
Ropist vs Dancer
Looking at the AP distribution, you'll have both the STR and AGL advantage. This, obviously, is good for the endurance game. He'll be able to use (counter) and (outside), as he'll be taller. Most often, the dancer will slap with lines like 5/1/14 (outside), 6/1/13 (outside), 7/1/12 (outside), and so on.
Sometimes, you'll get one that likes to scrap a bit, and he might use lines like 4B/8/8 (counter), and such. Scouting your opponent is important to know the best way to beat them. Be sure to look for KP on dancers, because that is the most popular variety currently.
You have the availability to use (clinch), (inside), (ring), and of course, (ropes). You'll probably benefit most from (clinch) and (inside), and that may be the way to go -- especially in early fights to disguise your fighter's build. Using good tactics, you should be able to win this fight just on being the more endurance-efficient fighter.
Ropist vs Sissy
They've got a massive STR advantage, however, they're one dimensional fighters. They don't have options, like the rest of the builds do -- they slap. Knowing this is the key to beating them.
Open up _HARD_.
1) 5B/10/5 (inside)
Keep the score close, because if you give them the chance to run away, they'll certainly take it. With 3 STR and 1 POW, they're not going to do a lot of damage to you.
2) 6B/10/4 (inside)
if score < 0 then 8/8/4 (inside)
You can even throw in a few 5B/10/5 (allout) lines if you're sure they don't have any KP. I used to struggle with this matchup for a long time, until I realized just how much you can open up against them.
admin said:
5. Making a starting Ropist in the higher weight classes is almost impossible, simply not enough AP's to go around.
_Starting_ with a ropist is pretty much impossible. However, shaping a fighter into a ropist is very viable, and by the higher rating(status) fights, you could very well have a full-fledged ropist.
admin said:
How many Ropist managers are out there? I know Sardonic has knowledge of them and Ambivalence also makes good Ropists from what I have heard...perhaps I should look up his Gym and see what I can learn from watching his fights.
Ambiv is retired, currently, I thought. If not, tell him to pop into #webl sometime -- we haven't seen him in there in ages.
The rest of you, as well, feel free to pop in. We often have good discussions with World Title managers on topics ranging from fighter creation to scouting. It's an excellent learning resource.
As far as good ropist managers, I'd say the ones I respect the most are:
-- Great Gnu`s Garage (WILBOO Inc.)[BTP]
He was my mentor on ropists early on. He's _very_ good with them, and is a good guy.
-- Degeneration - X WTA Inc
DX is an excellent ropist manager as well, and a good resource for learning about KP Balanced. I've not spoken with him personally, though, it is on my list of "people to talk to".
-- Lambs Arena [The Brotherhood]
Lambs is the only active Central manager that I don't have a win against, and his ropists are a big part of the reason why. I can't figure him out for the life of me, and he's quite obviously doing something right.
-- Jono (UK)
I was initially supposed to take him on in a clan battle a few months ago, and thus, scouted his gym. I was impressed with some of the victories and tactics he used with his ropists. He's quite good with them, though, I've never spoken to him about it.
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italiano
I'm more of a balanced manager. I can use and win with all fighter types, pretty effectively. At the moment I am trying to bring a KP Ropist up through. I know they aren't really efficient, but it's an experiment I wanted to try out...to see how it goes.
Sardonic pretty much covered everything about ropists. Not much else to say about it. Just this one thing though:
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jimsardonic said:
Ropist vs Sissy
They've got a massive STR advantage, however, they're one dimensional fighters. They don't have options, like the rest of the builds do -- they slap. Knowing this is the key to beating them.
This line kind of confused me
, until I read it again: 
At first, what I thought you were saying was that the "sissy" had a massive STR advantage. But then I realized you were refering to the ropist.
Last Edit: Nov 5, 2006 at 8:33am by italiano
Italiano ~SoS~
If it doesn't matter who wins or loses then why do they keep score...
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Evolve <Evil Empire>
I thought that at first as well.
Most of the Ropists I made early, and even some of the ones I carry now, had KP despite the conventional wisdom being that they should not have it and I actually managed to score quite a few knockouts with them.
I recently learned from the South forum that I was using the wrong scoring lines when using the Ropes style, I was running Ring type scoring lines instead of concentrating on slugging and pounding when in the ropes style.
I also did take the advice, well, actually I tried it and then got the same advice later, of using inside vs. Sissy's or Dancer's and it worked rather well, especially to try and slow them down.
And I am going to look into some of those other Gyms you listed for Ropists, looking at other managers who are successful will surely help me out.
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WR
Evolve,
When building a ropist, I do not build pure ropists. I find it easier to win (early on) if you build an Agile Balance fighter (which has very similar in build to a ropist), as I think it gives you a few more options as a manager early on. The agile balanced has no real weakness, and they seem to dish out damage, as well as control score.
AGILE BALANCED:
ST 12 KP 0
SP 13 AG 15
CH 9 CN 13
Cuts VL, Height 5'07"
~VS~
ROPIST:
ST 10 KP 0
SP 12 AG 18
CH 8 CN 14
Cuts VL, Height 5'07
With a height advantage, I rarely go outside on a shorter opponent. The key for me, is if my agility is generally +4 pts more than my opp, I will use ropes (unless my opp is a clincher). If it is less than 4, I will be more defensive, and slug with ring, counter, or no style.
Yes, ropes vs clinch is a horrible idea. Ropes lowers your agl which a bad thing against a clincher. Use Ring, it will save you some IP's.
ropists vs dancers:
What Sardonic Said.
Also, I saw you post in the South Forum, if your needing some FP help, just shoot me an e-mail at jvgrippin@sbcglobal.net
Making Ropists at higher weight classes:
This is why I generally make Agile Balanced fighters in lieu of Ropists at Higher weight classes. As you move up in status, and gain ap's you start to build a ropist. However, I believe in starting off as an agile balanced. I wouldn't try to build a ropist in cruisers or heavy's though. I think light heavy is about the absolute limit for this style of fighter, and light heavy may be a stretch. I run the majority of my fighters at light heavy to super lightweight classes.
As for gyms in the south that run ropists right now, look at Bad Bit. Bad Bit probably is doing the most with this fighter style in the South in my opinion.
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Evolve <Evil Empire>
Yes, I learned about making Heavyweight Ropists rather quickly although I do have one who started out rather promising, 3-0-0 and a few at 2-1-0. Granted that is early in their career though. I have heard the advice before to make Ropists balanced and then move into the Ropist build and by three wins you can be at Status/Rank 5 which would give you, probably, enough agility points to make better use of a Ropist strategy.
Out of curiosity though, why don't you use Outside against Shorter Fighters if you have the height advantage?
Someone else told me to use no Style if I was not sure of the Agility advantage, truthfully I had never thought of it before that.
And I think my problem with getting into the higher status fights, or winning them, is not efficiently scouting out my opponents enough or using pre made fight plans for too long. One fight plan against clinchers doesn't work, well, it does early, but as you advance it stops working. I have a few Top Ten fighters in Rookies so I am not doing horribly and had a few fair fighters in South before I pulled out of South.
When you guys fight against Ropists how do you fight plan to beat them? I generally find that many people slap the ropist to a win due to the speed advantage, I also have had clinchers wear me down so far endurance wise that my fighter wanted to just stay in the corner between rounds heh.
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italiano
admin said:
Out of curiosity though, why don't you use Outside against Shorter Fighters if you have the height advantage?
It's not that you can't use it, but if they are going to the body, for instance, going outside will tire you out quickly. And once you are at a disadvantage in the endurance war, you're gonna have a hard time catching up. And while your slapping he's winning rounds with power punching, which makes you open up even more and take even more damage...ropes or ring should be your main options.
admin said:
Someone else told me to use no Style if I was not sure of the Agility advantage, truthfully I had never thought of it before that.
Yeah that sounds right. The Ropist should have a marginal agility advantage, that is, 5 or more points. Any uncertainty and the ropes (style) would get you killed.
admin said:
And I think my problem with getting into the higher status fights, or winning them, is not efficiently scouting out my opponents enough or using pre made fight plans for too long. One fight plan against clinchers doesn't work, well, it does early, but as you advance it stops working. I have a few Top Ten fighters in Rookies so I am not doing horribly and had a few fair fighters in South before I pulled out of South.
That's gonna happen, unfortunately all I can do is refer you to the Help Pages. Learn the ins and outs of scouting and you'll be able to win the fights status (10) and higher.
admin said:
When you guys fight against Ropists how do you fight plan to beat them? I generally find that many people slap the ropist to a win due to the speed advantage, I also have had clinchers wear me down so far endurance wise that my fighter wanted to just stay in the corner between rounds heh.
When I fight Bad Bit and/or Great Gnu, the matchups are usually in my favor. A lot of my fighters have KP, which will or should beat any endurance fighter. When I don't have KP I have a high strength advantage (slugger or agile slugger), and fairly good agility and speed. My main goal is to be able to win the endurance war without losing rounds. With this I'll usually win the first or the first couple of rounds and then I go to the body. I will occassionally, but rarely slap for a points win. However, that is after scouting...that may not work against another ropist manager.
Last Edit: Nov 6, 2006 at 8:45am by italiano
Italiano ~SoS~
If it doesn't matter who wins or loses then why do they keep score...
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jimsardonic
admin said:
Out of curiosity though, why don't you use Outside against Shorter Fighters if you have the height advantage?
Ropists are made to be endurance fighters. They often don't have the speed for slapping, and by doing so, you're taking away from your chances to gain the endurance advantage and win. Also, if you're way taller than the opponent, you've probably got a _very_ sizeable AGL advantage -- which would make it more beneficial to use ring or ropes.
admin said:
Someone else told me to use no Style if I was not sure of the Agility advantage, truthfully I had never thought of it before that.
It's a good idea, because no style has no penalties. If you were to use ropes improperly, you would get -1 AGL with no benefit. Ring would give +1 AGL, but, you would incur that extra 1 point of fatigue per round... and that will certainly add up.
admin said:
And I think my problem with getting into the higher status fights, or winning them, is not efficiently scouting out my opponents enough or using pre made fight plans for too long.
This could be. Don't let yourself get predictable... people will find tendencies, and abuse them. This is true throughout your webl career. I recently had a series of fights with a manager, and I noticed that in every fight, he rested in the 6th round. So, the next time we fought, I prepared a 5B/10/5 (allout) for that round. You don't want that to happen to you.
admin said:
One fight plan against clinchers doesn't work, well, it does early, but as you advance it stops working. I have a few Top Ten fighters in Rookies so I am not doing horribly and had a few fair fighters in South before I pulled out of South.
You're doing well, and it's obvious that you want to learn. That's all that matters
admin said:
When you guys fight against Ropists how do you fight plan to beat them? I generally find that many people slap the ropist to a win due to the speed advantage, I also have had clinchers wear me down so far endurance wise that my fighter wanted to just stay in the corner between rounds heh.
It depends on the matchup and manager tendencies, really. Usually, if you have KP, you want to flash as early as possible. With a Dancer or balanced type of fighter, you can certainly try the slapping route -- though, you'll probably need to rest at some point in the fight or risk being KO'd with a good amount of IP's. Sluggers, I either hope for a mistake in the build of the fighter or in the manager's fight plan. I've not run a clincher in ages, so I couldn't be too sure -- but I'd imagine it's just a matter of being aggressive enough to overcome the AGL advantage. Most ropists use very low chin, and thus, you might be able to score a KO with (inside) depending on the build.
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Evolve <Evil Empire>
That's gonna happen, unfortunately all I can do is refer you to the Help Pages. Learn the ins and outs of scouting and you'll be able to win the fights status (10) and higher.
I have been putting much more work into scouting of late. I sat down one night and ran through the simulator a bunch of times to get a statistical viewpoint on the number of punches thrown depending on your aggression so I could get a good idea of what AGG line my opponent was using. Then I read on another help page that you could divide the number of punches thrown by 9 and get a basic idea. But I did find out that past AGG 6 the standard range between the punch numbers changes dramatically. There is more variation, for example you could run AGG 6 and AGG 7 and in some rounds you will actually throw the same number of punches. Actually, in a few simulations, AGG 8 dipped down into AGG 6 punch stat numbers. That helped me a good deal because I want to use the lowest aggression possible to win the rounds and I really wanted to know how much variation there was in the number of punches thrown.
Your mention about predictability was exactly right, I had the same rest line, always in Round Seven, and somebody caught onto that and all-outed me and KO'ed me. Then it later worked in my advantage because I put a high power line in just for Round Seven and moved my rest line and caught someone trying to catch me.
I have collected an enormous amount of information on Ropists from a number of people and I have it all jotted down in a notebook, I am thinking of compiling it all into one form and posting it somewhere. Of course, none of the information is mine, but it is all good information none-the-less.
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usagi
I'm 53-30 against Degeneration X. We chatted often when he started playing WeBL. It's great to see him accomplish what he has. He's like the younger brother who has surpassed the elder.
I stopped using ropists when I retired a couple of years ago. My gym record pretty much reflects what I did with them and that was before changes to ropes. The most difficult match up was against KP sissies, especially run by skilled managers. I prefer running strong, very heavy build dancers now. If you run them right, you can make them look like balanced sluggers. Plus fatigue isn’t as big an issue, which means feint can be used more efficiently.
I also kept a three ring binder with each of my match-ups. I had a section for each manager I faced, the fight, the fight plan used and the result. It was a great way to see trends.
And don't be predictable. Here's an example of the way I use a rest/conditional round (slugger vs balance slugger).
1) 5B/8/7 (ring);
3) 3B/8/9 (ring);
3) if endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 6) then 4B/8/8 (ring);
3) if endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 4) then 5B/8/7 (ring);
3) if endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 2) then 5B/10/5 (ring);
3) if mystuns = 0 and score < 2 and endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 6) then 5B/8/7 (ring);
3) if mystuns = 0 and score < 2 and endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 4) then 6B/7/7 (ring);
3) if mystuns = 0 and score < 2 and endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 2) then 5B/9/6 (inside);
3) if opp < strong and endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 6) then 4B/9/7 (ring);
3) if opp < strong and endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 4) then 5B/9/6 (ring);
3) if opp < strong and endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 2) then 5B/9/6 (inside);
3) if mystuns - (round - 1) > 2 and endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 6) then 4/8/8 (clinch)
3) if mystuns - (round - 1) > 2 and endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 4) then 5/8/7 (clinch)
3) if mystuns - (round - 1) > 2 and endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 2) then 5B/7/8 (ring)
6) 2B/1/8 (clinch);
6) if endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 4) and hisstuns > 1 then 5H/11/4 (inside);
6) if endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 4) and opp < strong then 5H/11/4 (inside);
6) if endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 4) and score < -1 then 5H/11/4 (inside);
6) if endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1) * 4) and score > 2 then 5H/9/6 (inside);
7) 3B/8/9 (ring);
Notice in round 6 I will rest unless one of the conditionals are met, which means it may not always kick in. Reduces predictability. Sometimes I will but this in for round 5 or round 7. Keep it changing. Then per the above, round 7 was a static line too keep me from resting the rest of the fight. It's quite embarrassing when that happens.
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Evolve <Evil Empire>
I also keep up with my fights but I never thought of keeping one against other managers, I like that suggestion. I noticed you elected to go 6-4-2 on your conditional rounds, I usually see 5-4-3-2. Is there a reason why you use 6-4-2 instead?
And I agree that sissies are a monster to deal with, I still have problems with regular dancers but I am getting much closer to figuring them out.
And I really like the binder idea by the way, that is a good way to see if managers get predictable.
Thor bad to the bone gym
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Guest
I have to disagree with the statement you cant make ropist to start.
Check out Steve "Bad to the Bone" Erwin in the Bad to the bone gym.
I dont think I could make a good ropist with only 70 ap's in another weight class but in Straws were everyone wants to be a slugger or clincher it seems easy to make a Ropist and win with him.
To tell you the truth Im surprised more managers dont try this.
Of course alot will depend on your fp but to date Ive only used 2. I'll wait and surprise an alert manager soon. =)
Thor...
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jimsardonic
I believe the discussion pertained to the Heavier weights. I run ropists at just about everything below cruisers... but CW's and HW's, I don't feel there's a good starting ropist build for.
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Evolve <Evil Empire>
Yead, Sardonic is right, I run all ropists and I haev no problems at lower weights, but at the higher weights it is difficult to make a starting ropist.
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usagi
I learned a while back, through getting predictable, you can write the same plan twice, but use different endurance conditionals; sometime 5/3/2 sometimes 6/4/2. My region has a lot of dancer/sissies so I can get down to 6 and still feel comfortable.
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DegenerationX
Usagi you are always a pain to beat in the game.
Inthe higher weight classes, nobody can make an effective ropist but they can build them INTO ropists.
You may even consider starting them with 7-8 chin and 13 conditioning depending on what type of fighters run rampant in your region. The 7 chin and 13 conditioning will give you +3 aps to put on strength, speed, and agility.
Try it.You may find this build may work better vs the sluggers and dancer types.
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jimsardonic
I fully agree with DX on this. I start almost all of my ropists at 7 chin and 13 CON.
Why?
End = POW * STR * sqrt(SPD * AGG)/ opp(DEF * AGL)
STR, SPD, and AGL are the only things that affect your damage done. The more points you have in these areas, the more damage you'll do.
It's also worth noting that extra points put into AGL is going to raise your effectiveness with (ropes), by maximizing the advantage given by it. Quite simply, a 6 point AGL advantage will do more than a 5 point AGL advantage.
If you can maintain efficiency in fighter design, as well as efficiency in fight planning -- you'll be hard pressed to lose against most non-kp guys shorter than you.
KP isn't a problem either, due to all the AGL. You can often get a big jump in AGL by using (ring) over ropes, and by not having a high KP and Chin, you're naturally better at dealing damage. It's just a matter of making sure you don't get KO'd, and let the build advantage do the work for you.
Against taller fighters, the extra STR you put in as opposed to having in CHN or CON helps. With a good build, a few clinch, inside, and allout lines should take down most sissies.
It's all about efficiency, regardless of build -- but if you do it right with a ropist, you'll do well.
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DegenerationX
Jim is right. Don't don't forget that with the serious agility ropists have, that they can pretty much eat kp balanced and flashers with the right fp styles.
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Evolve <Evil Empire>
I usually start my ropists with an 8 chin but if I can get away with 7 I could use the AP. I have learned to go inside on sissies but they still give me problems. As for the Heavyweight division, I have five heavyweight ropists and actually one of them is almost in the Top 10. I may have just gotten lucky so far though. Flashers are not usually a problem but I tend to give my ropists a little KP and I have been known to take a chance in rounds where flashers get aggressive and try and knock them out first, amazingly it actually works rather often.
What I have found with most of the people I fight so far is that by analyzing their fight plan, most of them are predictable. They use the same basic fight plans. Most clinchers change to inside once their opponent is low on endurance for example...
Good fighter build is important, but it seems to me that good scouting is more so.
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DegenerationX
Scouting is important,but a good ropist should be able to do well in any public region (except the specialty regions, they have their own builds that work for those regions in patrticular)
Efficiency, efficiency, efficiency. Just think that when you make your fps andyou should do well.