Helpful Q & A Threads

Contributed by Zam & The Ministry of Defense

written by: conference

Chin on KP fighters

Posted by: Ghosts who Walk (Judgement Inc.)
Date: Tuesday December 05, 2006 - 4:42 AM

Is there a equation people generally feel is pretty close to the mark for Flashers and KP Balanced. Of working out how much chin they need.
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Posted by: [W.R] Lightning Eagle
Date: Tuesday December 05, 2006 - 4:52 AM

11 + 1/2 KP should get you pretty close
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Posted by: Ragnarok Gym
Date: Tuesday December 05, 2006 - 5:01 AM

Don't forget to use a fair bit of power though and headhunt in return...maybe lines like 3H/6/11 (ring). I had a dancer with no KP and two opponents tried flashing him unexpectedly in the middle of the fight, but his chin was 14 and he was using a line like 6H/3/11...got me a knockdown in two rounds and finished him off in the one after. He had no KP and strength 12 for that fight.

Usually 12 chin is absolutely fine, 11 is borderline and I'd make a more defensive fightplan for that IMO.
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Posted by: Unforgiven Gym [BTP]
Date: Wednesday December 06, 2006 - 1:42 AM

At what status are you talking about? Even at 28 status a 14 chin on a non-kp dancer is excessive. I would suggest a max of 12, with proper fight planning. Anything more than this and you are fighting down 2-3 aps vs non kp fighters, more or less killing your fighter.

As far as kp for flashers and kp balanced the equation given above looks good, although some kp managers will add more in the case of flashers
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Posted by: Morton`s
Date: Wednesday December 06, 2006 - 11:10 AM

Albino used to espouse a chin of 9+ 1/2KP in regionals, 11+1/2KP in tenders.
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Posted by: Ghosts who Walk (Judgement Inc.)
Date: Thursday December 07, 2006 - 1:51 AM

Thanks for the help guys. DANCERS....


Dancers


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Posted by: Advancement of the Axis
Date: Sunday November 12, 2006 - 9:49 PM

Yes...I need some help...Hola

Albino states that for this fighter, any type of build is good for them. But somethings don't make sense

1) what is the advantage of a dancer who is heavy? From what i hear, vl is best to take advantage of them counter punching.

2) Shouldn't a dancer, a strong dancer, be made at a vl or l to have more strength at a lighter division?

3) What is the best ratio for a dancer as far as str>agl>spd?

4) Wouldn't it be advisable for a strong dancer to use counter to the body?

And last but not least, is it better to have a strong dancer with kp or a dancer who's biased at spd?

THANKS!!
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Posted by: Sardonic`s Gym <UV>
Date: Sunday November 12, 2006 - 10:03 PM

This is strictly in my opinion, I could be wrong at some point -- but, I'm sure I'll be corrected if that's the case.

1) what is the advantage of a dancer who is heavy? From what i hear, vl is best to take advantage of them counter punching.

It's much harder for the opponent to scout. As long as you remember that you're heavy -- and not very light, or very heavy -- and know where your AP advantages should be, this won't matter too much. If you want more height, presumably to use outside or counter, then make them lighter. If you want more AGL to open up ring and ropes in some matchups, the heavies should suffice.

2) Shouldn't a dancer, a strong dancer, be made at a vl or l to have more strength at a lighter division?

What is a strong dancer? SPD biased balanced? If you've got more STR due to going vl, you're going to have less height. It's a matter of finding which combination of height/STR you're most comfortable with.

3) What is the best ratio for a dancer as far as str>agl>spd?

I usually prefer SPD=AGL > STR, but, you can go SPD > AGL or AGL > SPD. It's really more into what you prefer, whether or not you have KP, and what you commonly come up against in your region. If you're going to be slugging, you'll probably want more STR/AGL... if you're going to be slapping, SPD/AGL will help.

4) Wouldn't it be advisable for a strong dancer to use counter to the body?

Depending on the matchup, for sure. It may be advisable to use any of ring, ropes, counter, outside, and no style in most matchups -- and still could have clinch or inside against sissies.

And last but not least, is it better to have a strong dancer with kp or a dancer who's biased at spd?

Again, it's manager preference. Personally, I prefer them with KP. I find that if an opponent has to be wary of your flashing, you'll have an easier time scoring -- and vice versa. The extra dimension to the figher really helps in my opinion, in making the fighter less predictable.
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Posted by: Outta Shape
Date: Monday November 13, 2006 - 1:52 PM

1) what is the advantage of a dancer who is heavy? From what i hear, vl is best to take advantage of them counter punching.

if your fighter is heavy he has more aps for his division making ring/ropes more useful (also you will have a couple more aps to give you a style advantage). If you are going very light he is going to be using counter alot more often.

2) Shouldn't a dancer, a strong dancer, be made at a vl or l to have more strength at a lighter division?

vl or l does not give a fighter more strength in a lighter division ie.

fighter a st - 11 KP - 0 sp - 15 ag - 17 ch - 10 co - 14 build - v heavy height - 5'2"

fighter b st - 11 KP - 0 sp - 14 ag - 16 ch - 10 co - 14 build - v light height - 5'4"

3) What is the best ratio for a dancer as far as str>agl>spd?

the majority would consider a dancer to have his highest stat as agility so he has the ability to dance around the ring so he would be agl>spd>str. If you have spd>agl>str then i would consider this more of a strong counterpuncher but obviously not everyone will agree with me.

4) Wouldn't it be advisable for a strong dancer to use counter to the body?

Everything comes down to you using the best style for your ap advantage. If you only have a couple of points of agility advantage compared to 6 points of speed/height advantage then counter would be the best route to take. Then again if the example was reversed then the use of ring/ropes would be a better option (ropes being the more offensive style and ring more defensive).

And last but not least, is it better to have a strong dancer with kp or a dancer who's biased at spd?

Both do well if managed properly but remember if you use Kp you can have up to 5 aps wasted on it compared to your opponent as well as a point or two of chin, so this will make it harder for you to score. i wouldn't suggest using more than 4 power when dancing against any endurance fighter unless flashing. Non KP don't have the wasted aps in chin and KP but if someone is slugging them hard they don't have the KP to KO/stun them and get them to back off but if fought and setup well they can stay in the endurance fight and they also score alot better.
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Posted by: Advancement of the Axis
Date: Monday November 13, 2006 - 9:12 PM

Thanks guys...

more help on dancers would be appreciated.
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Posted by: The Small Gym On The Corner...[The Brotherhood]
Date: Tuesday November 14, 2006 - 9:42 AM

I always find that using very light for a KP Dancer allows him to fight in the lower weight classes giving him a big height advantage.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Tuesday November 14, 2006 - 5:42 PM
Edited: Tuesday November 14, 2006 - 5:42 PM

Dancers, KP Dancers and Counter Punchers represent most of my success, so I have some definite opinions about them.

1) what is the advantage of a dancer who is heavy? From what i hear, vl is best to take advantage of them counter punching.

A dancer is most efficient when VH, without question. By definition, as Outta said, a dancer should be built to take advantage of his agility. Agility is always maximized in a given division with VH build. So is STR. When your fighter is of a lighter build, he is taller and the height AP's are given to AGL and SPD, but not to STR. So the lighter the build, the lower his STR as a percentage of his total APs, though he has higher STR for his height. In my experience VH is the best build for a dancer. VH will do better against clinchers ropists and balanced. And those are the dominant fighter types in WeBL.

2) Shouldn't a dancer, a strong dancer, be made at a vl or l to have more strength at a lighter division?

No for the reasons stated above.

3) What is the best ratio for a dancer as far as str>agl>spd?

I have found that the best combination is to have spd and agl close with an agl bias of 1 or 2 APs at 28/28. He will be faster than the ropists but not all that much less agile. He will have enough AGL to use ropes against the clinchers and he can use ring or counter against balanced. As far as STR goes, I have had WTS with fighters anywhere from STR = 60% of AGL up to 80%. Above that he is agile balanced (those work too. Most of my balanced WTs have been with agile balanced fighters). The most successful dancers I have had have been near 70% of AGL.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Tuesday November 14, 2006 - 5:42 PM

4) Wouldn't it be advisable for a strong dancer to use counter to the body?

Against some fighters that might be advisable if they are very slow. But mostly you would use ring or ropes to the body if you build them the way I do. Remember that ring and ropes do not carry an AGG penalty and so you score better. If you build them the way I do, then your AGL is your key asset and you want to choose styles that maximize both AP bonus and scoring capability.

And last but not least, is it better to have a strong dancer with kp or a dancer who's biased at spd?

I don't use a spd bias with my dancers. As has already been mentioned, this would make them Counter Punchers rather than dancers. As for KP, that is a matter of preference, but KP is much more effective from LH up. As Outta has pointed out, a dancer will have a huge AP advantage over a kp dancer because of APs in chin and kp. The shorter the fighter, the more concentrated this advantage becomes as more and more APs come out of height and into the three key categories (STR, AGL, SPD). The more APs in those categories, the bigger the style bonuses and the more exaggerated the advantage when they are in kp and chin. Remember, kp fighters only use the kp maybe 3 rounds per fight. Dancers use every one of their APs each and every round.

So the short answer is kp, but I'd choose neither of those for a strong dancer below LH unless your name is Kewari, Gun Show or Schnake in which case I'd take the kp.


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Posted by: Advancement of the Axis
Date: Tuesday November 14, 2006 - 7:23 PM

WOW!!! That is some serious information that i need to soak in! Hey AOP, or anybody for that matter, i have read unforgiven's pages as far as a kp dancer, but is there any chance that i can somewhat slug with one, and not just slap to set them up for a stun? Sanny said that I should use dancers/kp dancers a while ago because they are closest to the kp sissies that i run. So, can dancers/kp dancers throw in some power lines like a 6/6/8 safely, or must i go like 7/1/12 (ring) and go for the stun when they catch up?

2)Are kp fighters more susceptible to ips than non kp fighters? I am asking because i went 5h/10/5 (allout) in round 2, and the guy i was fighting was i think a balanced fighter. Well needless to say, his punch output was something like 3/31/3 (ring) not sure how many jabs he was throwing, but my fighter had suffered cuts and was in bad condition, even though my opponenet didn't appeear to throw too much power shots. I know that allout, u will take 4x damage.
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Posted by: Advancement of the Axis
Date: Tuesday November 14, 2006 - 7:38 PM

Actually, I thank all you guys for this. I've been playing for 4 years and i know i wanna go join a public region. But first, Some guys in Webl Extreme need a lesson. Mic Exp clocked me and Sanny's starting to get the best of my sissies.

Oh last question.....

1) What would the progession be for a dancer and what would the progression be for a kp dancer (typical) for status 18 and status 28?

I know I am being a pain, but the only way I'm gonna learn is to ask ask ask!!
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Tuesday November 14, 2006 - 7:43 PM

1) Kp dancers generally shouldn't throw power against non kp fighters because the lower defense will sap their endurance and help maximize the endurance advantage of the non kp fighter. Also, the likelihood of getting cut is significantly greater at 8 defense vs 12 defense. So throwing power isn't a good idea generally.

2) Kp dancers are more susceptible to ips because they have take more damage due to the loss of APs to chin and kp. However, that damage can be minimized by slapping with high defense and stunning at critical junctures. A kp dancer mostly shouldn't allout unless he is fairly sure the other fighter will be slapping. It doesn't take much power to do a lot of damage at 4X.
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Posted by: Advancement of the Axis
Date: Tuesday November 14, 2006 - 7:43 PM

Oh d**n the mighty one is here, TEACH ME AOP TEACH ME!!
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Posted by: Advancement of the Axis
Date: Tuesday November 14, 2006 - 7:43 PM

i WILL BE THE NEW ANAKIN!! TEACH YOUR PADAWAN THE WAYS OF YOUR SKILLZ WITH THE FORCE!!
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Posted by: Advancement of the Axis
Date: Tuesday November 14, 2006 - 7:45 PM

i guess i should use a non kp dancer. i would like to be up on score and go to the body to slow them down, but i guess a kp dancer could do that using head shots instead.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Tuesday November 14, 2006 - 7:53 PM

The progression is really a matter of what your opponent's build and fighting style is.

5B/7/8 (ring) or (ropes) is always a safe start unless you are facing a kp balanced or a flasher.

The early rounds should probably go with 5b/7/8, 5/7/8, 6/6/8 and maybe 7/5/8. Later you will be at 8/5/7, 9/4/7, 10/3/7 and perhaps all the way up to 12/1/7 under certain circumstances. You'd be using ring or ropes early and ring or feint late. Once you have won 6 rounds, you should back off a tad and use ring in case of the flash attempt.

Many managers use lines like 5/8/7, 6/7/7, 7/7/6, 7/6/7 early. I have found these not as efficient and your fighter tends to get cut more. Those are good lines for high STR fighters, but not dancers.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Tuesday November 14, 2006 - 7:55 PM

Regular dancers are much easier to fight than kp dancers. Kp dancers require good instincts and excellent timing.
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Posted by: Advancement of the Axis
Date: Tuesday November 14, 2006 - 8:02 PM

oh, sorry i meant the progression as far as their stats/ap distribution would be for stauts 18 and status 28. sorry
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Posted by: The Boz Squad ¢¼ Essence Of Boxing`s 187 ( BTP)
Date: Wednesday November 15, 2006 - 10:59 AM

My sluggers will kill them, SLEEZY. Ask Stalkers (USA South)
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Wednesday November 15, 2006 - 11:55 AM

VH build

STR <= 80% AGL and STR => 60% AGL

AGL = SPD +1 at 18/18

AGL = SPD + 2 at 28/28

Chin at 10 or 11 at 18/18

Chin at 11 or 12 at 28/28

CND begins at 14. Should get to 17 by 28 without training, just random APs.
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Posted by: Advancement of the Axis
Date: Wednesday November 15, 2006 - 5:17 PM

Ok, but what would the numbers be? Like, what would the numbers be for his different stats?
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Wednesday November 15, 2006 - 6:25 PM

Would you like me to chew it for you before I put it into your mouth to swallow?

Geez.

Just get out your calculator.

If AGL = 15 and your target is STR at 70% then STR would be 10.5 (10 or 11).

If AGL = 15 then spd should be 14.

This isn't rocket science.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Wednesday November 15, 2006 - 6:27 PM

Here is the build for a 28/28 welter at STR about 70% of AGL.

20 0
26 28
11 17
5'8" VH

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Posted by: The Boz Squad ¢¼ Essence Of Boxing`s 187 ( BTP)
Date: Wednesday November 15, 2006 - 6:33 PM

Would you like me to chew it for you before I put it into your mouth to swallow?
Don't forget the hotsauce, AoP. Heh heh.


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Posted by: Advancement of the Axis
Date: Wednesday November 15, 2006 - 6:48 PM

AOP!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

Math was always my worse subject in school, i was always around a d average, but thanks for the help anyways. :-)
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Posted by: Advancement of the Axis
Date: Monday November 20, 2006 - 6:11 PM

bump!!

AOP gave some good info, along with some other managers. This thread should be saved in one of the webl pages!!



KP Dancers vs Sluggers


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Posted by: -= Yell0w =-
Date: Thursday November 30, 2006 - 1:21 AM

I want your suggestion. A lot of KP Dancers lose to sluggers because when I'm winning in points I go 4b/8/8 (counter-ring-ropes-watever).

I notice that these rounds are bad because not only do I lose in points, but I lose in the efficiency fight.

What do you guys suggest instead?

6/6/8 (counter/ring/ropes)? 1/1/18? 7/1/12 (outside/ring) ?? or maybe stick with my 4b/8/8 (counter-ring-ropes-watever)
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Posted by: Sardonic`s Gym <UV>
Date: Thursday November 30, 2006 - 1:54 AM

In my experience:

Keep DEF as high as possible. As soon as a fighter has KP and more chin than a non-KP fighter would have, it's lost it's efficiency. Against poor managers, you may still be able to win an endurance fight -- but against anyone who's aware of how the sim works, you shouldn't have much of a chance.

Thus, in my experience, it's best to slap for score -- and then use the KP as the situation dictates. If someone opens up enough to allow you to KO them, you're merely doing a favor by not obliging.

I'd use lines like 5/1/14, 6/1/13, 7/1/12, 8/1/11... and so on, keeping DEF as high as possible unless someone presents an opportunity to flash.
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Posted by: .The Ice House . <UV>
Date: Thursday November 30, 2006 - 6:45 AM

Slap ! if they get to aggresive flash ! pure and simple!!
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Posted by: The Boz Squad ¢¼ Essence Of Boxing`s 187 ( BTP)
Date: Thursday November 30, 2006 - 6:58 AM

Do that with me, and you'll see the pearly gates, Ice House. =)
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Posted by: Evolve3 <*~Evil Empire~*>
Date: Thursday November 30, 2006 - 7:40 AM

So, how would you counter that suggestion Boz? I have ran into a ton of counter punchers who do that, slap until they are up by a few rounds and then settle down on power. I beat them simply by outslapping them and never allowing their flash conditional to kick in. But then, I am fairly new and sometimes do dumb sh*t.
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Posted by: House of Trivi [BTP]
Date: Thursday November 30, 2006 - 9:03 AM

If you can't win rounds with 6/1/13 your not facing a slugger, or you do not have a kp dancer...
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Posted by: The Boz Squad ¢¼ Essence Of Boxing`s 187 ( BTP)
Date: Thursday November 30, 2006 - 10:11 AM

If you have a slugger, you shouldn't be slapping against a kp dancer. first of all, he'll most likely have the HGT and AGL advantage over you. SPD may be a plus for him too. Your strength IS strength.
IF and that's a big if. If I ran KP dancers, which I only run 2, I would slap and score. I would neccesarily flash them if the get too aggressive because you may open yourself up for a punch in the mouth. If I am up a good margin, I'm going to counter them 4/8/8, 4/7/9 (headshots). I may hit them with a 5h/7/8 (counter).

I'm not a KP dancer (or kp period) manager at all. I prefer the art of war. But like Trivi said, if you can't win with 6/1/13, you're not facing a slugger. 6/1/13 against me will get you a overnight stay in the hospital. I'm not going to get aggressive on you. I'm going to increase my power and wear you down ot the point that a simple 5h/9/6 finishes you off.

But I'm no master. You need to ask the LikQid brothers.


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Posted by: Birmingham Zoo
Date: Thursday November 30, 2006 - 1:08 PM

4/8/8 lines are pointless for the dancer against the slugger... you will lose both on points and efficiency.

slap and maybe throw minimal power to prevent allouts or just plain recklessness. Keeping efficiency close is keeping defense high. You're fighter is not designed to win the efficiency battle, It's desinged to win on points.

6/1/13 (outside) should win you rounds and you can slow be more agressive later like 8/3/9 (outside) if 6/1/13 isn't getting it done. If 9 to 10 agg don't win rounds it's time to flash.


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Posted by: Naked << I.W.Y.N.>>
Date: Thursday November 30, 2006 - 4:02 PM

4B/6/10 (counter) is not too bad. Keeps the sluggers somewhat respectful and you DEF isn't too low.
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Posted by: Brass Knuckle Brigade <UV>
Date: Thursday November 30, 2006 - 5:31 PM

I have had success and a couple low IP fighters that move into Contenders that were KP dancers and such. When I am ahead I like to throw just enough punches to win the round but not enough to lose too much endurance. You can keep slapping, 6/1/13 (outside) for example, or 5/2/13 6/2/12 7/2/11 whatever you like and depending your opponnents fighter type. You could also do some counter, but make sure your not taking too much damage by making a conditional. I like to either slap or ring with a lil power to keep from getting flash KOed, or counter to the body(if you arent a KP sissy(str<9)). Hope this helps if you need more feel free to email me.

BKB
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Posted by: -= Yell0w =-
Date: Friday December 01, 2006 - 1:18 AM

mhh...so no real concessus. I guess im not the only one in that trouble then
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Posted by: Unforgiven Gym [BTP]
Date: Friday December 01, 2006 - 2:19 AM

If you are looking for a concensus I would throw my hat in the ring with the slap then flash crowd. Using lines with any power vs a slugger is a waste of aps. As stated above you lose out alot on endurance loss (costing you flashing power later) and you risk losing the round on score. Use a base aggression of 5 or 6 and a power of one with the rest invested in defense. however dont be predictable. start every few fights with a flash attempt to put off sluggers teeing off on you early.

If you are using a dancer you cannot attempt to keep the endurance game close or you are giving up 3 to 4 aps each fight. Kp is only usefull if you use it at its full effect. Grind it out with a slugger for half a fight then try to flash you will only be hurting yourself.

Play to your strengths. Your fighter type is created to win rounds on score or to stun opponents. Win rounds with minimal aggression and highest defense possible. Mix in Kp at unpredicable intervals to either k.o. opps or to keep their defenses high.
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Posted by: Evolve3 <*~Evil Empire~*>
Date: Friday December 01, 2006 - 7:09 AM

With my limited experience I would agree a consensus would be slap then flash, like Unforgiven said. I have encountered that plan quite a bit lately. Which I suppose would work if you get get the person to chase score and lower their defense some.



Backpediling

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Posted by: Concrete
Date: Saturday 12:55 PM

I have been using if score > 14 - round but will score > 13 - round still work?
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Posted by: BadBiticus
Date: Saturday 1:44 PM

Yes, but with no room for judges error. any deviation by the judges, and you probably lose!
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Posted by: Skie`s Infinite Fortress (Evil Empire/Indies)
Date: Saturday 2:29 PM

even score > 14 - round is not so safe methinks..
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Posted by: RK Underdogz (Polski Klan)
Date: Saturday 5:13 PM

I changed my "decision_won" conditional to if score > 15 - round.
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Posted by: The Art of Pugilism
Date: Saturday 6:42 PM

It is still possible to get a draw with score > 15 - round. I've had it happen a couple of times. I've never had a loss when that conditional triggered though.

With score > 14 - round, I've had numerous draws and a few losses.

Score > 13 - round is clearly unsafe. That will get you a loss or a draw about 40% of the time.
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Posted by: Shooter (BIA)
Date: Saturday 6:43 PM

if score >15-round ...
if score >14-round and endurance_percent <67....
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Posted by: Krankenhaus
Date: Saturday 6:51 PM

15-round is also dangerous though, as you may lose some fights by not running away (do you really need to be up by four rounds in the 12th?) Shooter is on the right track though -- it should be tied to your endurance. If you are still quite fresh, there is less reason to run away with a more risky win conditional. For me, I use 14-round the vast majority of the time.
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Posted by: Ty`s Gym of the UItra Violence
Date: Saturday 11:40 PM

pffftttt - backpedalling....
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Posted by: Ty`s Gym of the UItra Violence
Date: Saturday 11:42 PM

if score >14-round and endurance_percent <67 and my_worth_as_a_true_warrior_is <=30...


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Posted by: Invincible Iain (Double I)(TDC)
Date: Sunday 4:39 AM

I have lost way too many fights using score > 14 and ive recentley had draws and a loss a few weeks ago even using score > 15, so I do everthing now combining the different conditionals and I combine everthing with endurance and stuns, if im strong and he is tired I see no point in covering up and risking a loss or draw on the scorecards and since ive been using these type of lines ive had a lot less in the way of bad decisions.

I vary my lines dependant of fighter type but this is the sort of thing i'll generally use.

1) if score > 14 - round and (endurance_percent > 70 or endurance_percent > 60 and opp < 2) then 5h/7/8 (style)
1) if score > 14 - round and endurance_percent < 65 and opp = 2 then x/x/x (cover up)
1) if score > 15 - round and (endurance_percent > 75 or endurance_percent > 65 and opp < 2) and mystuns <= hisstuns then 5h/7/8 (style)
1) if score > 16 - round then x/x/x (cover up)
1) if score > 13 - round and (endurance_percent < 60 and opp = 2 or endurance_percent < 65 and opp = 2 and mystuns > hisstuns or mystuns > hisstuns + 2 and opp = 2) then x/x/x (cover up)
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Posted by: Pasoa`s Playground (100% retired)
Date: Sunday 5:53 AM


I've put below lines on the bottom of almost every fight plan I have:

1) if score > 13 - round and roundswon > 5 then 3H/6/11 (ring);
1) if score > 14 - round and roundswon > 3 then 3H/6/11 (ring);
1) if score > 15 - round and roundswon > 1 then 3H/6/11 (ring);
1) if score > 16 - round then 2H/4/14 (ring); > 85% don`t need to rest
<= 85% remains standing
<= 75% grabs bottle
<= 65% obviously tired
<= 55% sucking wind
<= 45% exhausted
<= 35% collapses limpy onto stool
<= 25% requires medical attention
<= 15% can`t remember his corner


Stun Lines for KP Dancer


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Posted by: -Unique-
Date: Wednesday 9:35 AM

Well I just need to stun them to win rounds with more than 1 point margin so that I can use more defencive style later in the fight. So I just need some good safe stun lines for KP dancers. No need to go over aggressive and try to KO then (and get KOed myself in then process).

Can 5H/9/6 (insert style here) do the trick? Should I use counter or feint as I got good speed?
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Posted by: Morton`s
Date: Wednesday 10:39 AM

Stun lines for a KP dancer.

There are a couple of philosophies for stunning with KP Dancers.


Use your KP only defensively, dance like a sissy until the opp drops defense and then counter/feint/ring to the head to end the fight. In this case, use enough power to KO the opp but not get KOd yourself, if you fail, you are going to suffer alot of IPs. ie. 5H/11/4 (counter).
Use your KP to stun for scoring purposes. Use this if the opp will elevate aggression rather than power. If you can win the round while they are using something like 8/4/8, you will not take as much damage AND you may not be capable of a KO, so use a 5H/9/6 (feint/ropes/inside) depending on your AP distribution.
Run score, win your 7 rounds and then use it to protect your lead. 3H/6/11 (ring)


Anyway, KP dancers are versatile and if played right can have great early regional success but require more careful management at high regional/contender status. My WTs were won with a KP dancer.
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Posted by: ~Albino~ (+28 WTs won with Suntouchers)
Date: Wednesday 8:36 PM

you dont want to just stun them. that usually hurts you too much. slap or KO is best way to approach it for minimal ips. kp dancers right now have to be very agile to handle the clinchers. they would then use ropes or counter to flash depending on the opponent.

there really is no such thing as a safe stun. webl would be dominated by kp guys. slap when you lose too many rounds or take too much early damage are usually two good ways to end a fight before round 5.

key is win as many rounds as possible early and force the opponent to open up. if he doesnt open up you run away on points and hide from damage. when he does open up, you can flash him.
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Posted by: Dark Revelations from the Lotus Sutra (TBH)
Date: Wednesday 9:52 PM

yeah i'm with albino. i run like 50-60% dancers and its usually best to slap. 8/4/8 won't get you too much unless fighting like a KP Balanced.
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Posted by: Tha Row`s Finest -=- Gee Money -=- TDC -=-
Date: Thursday 6:19 AM

morton ment is the opp is using 8/4/8.
not using those numbers with the dancer
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Posted by: -Unique-
Date: Thursday 7:20 AM

Thanks again people.

Btw. Pure dancers are completely dead atm. I tried running couple of them with very good FP's. Well I hardly ever lost a fight but I kept taking HUGE number of IP's no matter what (even when I fought with high defence etc. I used rings mostly as my pure dancers have/had huge agl.)

Sincerely,

-Unique-
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Posted by: Morton`s
Date: Thursday 9:37 AM

Pure sissy dancers with no KP will and should take higher than normal IPs. Without something for the opp to worry about, people will open up with high power against you.

KP Dancing managerment should learn how to manipulate the opponent FPs for optimal success. If they cannot be manipulated, then you have to work hard and take your lumps. As Albino said, if you've suffered too much damage entering into the middle of the fight, you are better off with a suicide flash which guarentees getting yourself KOd compared to running the length of the fight and taking more than 25+ IPs. This is a management decision on fighter longevity, In regionals, I would fight this way. Higher contenders, I'd rather stick it out and advance with a painful win.


Scouting Clinic

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Posted by: Satan`s Hell Hole
Date: Sunday 4:12 AM

What I already know :

1. You have to look for the other fighter's weight throughout his career. If it stayed the same you don't get much help there though.

2. You look at his KO ratio. You look at when the KOs occured. And if he wears down his opponent before knocking them out or just flash them when they open up.

3. You look at the styles he uses vs fighter of same/different build.

Also I already have a fight parser. Altough I don't really know what to do with the information I get from it.

By following the above rules, I can get a basic idea of what kind of fighter I'm facing. But to be honest, I have a hard time penciling the stats accurately. I always have a very rough idea but I'd like to narrow it down.

Right now I'm facing a lot of inexperienced guys who use the same strategy all the time, so it's pretty easy to win fights. But I know that it's going to get exponentially harder as I face better managers. I badly need a scouting clinic or I know I just won't be able to compete at higher levels.

I'm pretty sure there's more to it than what I'm doing. Any tips ?
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Posted by: Dark Revelations from the Lotus Sutra (TBH)
Date: Sunday 4:41 AM

You're off to a good start. Once you can pinpoint his AGI/STR, SPD becomes relatively easy to find. Look at how many punches he lands based on how many punches he attempted. Find the punches landed formula and plug in a couple numbers until 1 works.
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Posted by: Dark Revelations from the Lotus Sutra (TBH)
Date: Sunday 4:42 AM

KP is obvious if he's knocking guys out when they're not tired (check to make sure the opponent doesn't just have horrible CHN (which would be obvious if he gets knocked out early a lot) ).

Guess CHN based on his losses by KO. CND isn't too important, just assume from 14-16 in regionals usually.
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Posted by: ~Albino~ (+28 WTs won with Suntouchers)
Date: Sunday 7:27 AM

depends on what you are trying to gain by scouting. you can scout fighter stats or his fps. i normally scout fighters and write a good fp to beat the fighter. a lot of other managers scout fps to take advantage of gaps in fps or that fact that opponents always do a certain thing under certain conditions.

scouting fighters is mostly experience. if you think he has a slugger, you put start with viable slugger stats then refine it. i have heard of some people using my fighter creator to use as the start for scouting.

-refine it by looking at the styles the opponent is using (eg. inside would mean good str).
-make sure the stats you have scouted are in the right division.
-scout speed by replacating the previous fight the opponent and match all the punches by changing his speed. with the practice sim it could be a bit tedious though.
-scout chin by seeing any stuns when there shouldnt be, or loses to kp despite head targeting. this obviously reflects low chin.
-cond is difficult to scout. assume 14-17. ie 14-15 in regionals and 16-17 in contenders.
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Posted by: Satan`s Hell Hole
Date: Sunday 10:39 AM

"depends on what you are trying to gain by scouting. you can scout fighter stats or his fps. i normally scout fighters and write a good fp to beat the fighter. a lot of other managers scout fps to take advantage of gaps in fps or that fact that opponents always do a certain thing under certain conditions. "

I'm not too bad at guessing what other people are going to do. What I want to know is how to scout a fighter on his stats/attributes. My problem is at higher rating/status when I have a balanced fighter, and facing a guy about my height. I want to know which styles I can use. I want to know if it's worth it to use ring and lose an extra point on endurance or if I'm better off using clinch or no style. I have too rough of an idea to do this right now.
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Posted by: KO Warriors
Date: Monday 6:55 PM

Okay ... here is my thing:

I look at a fighter's stats and his past fights, etc. So, how do I use that info to come up with his strength, speed, agility, chin, and conditioning? How do I determine his build?

I remember when I played a few years ago that there was a formula or something, but I had left for awhile and lost it. If I knew where to find it, it would be very helpful.

How do I use the statements "fighter A doesn't need to rest", etc. to determine his endurance, etc.?

How do I use the beginning statements "fighter A comes out swinging", etc., to determine his style?

All this info used to be readily available ... and it still might be ... I just don't know where to find it. Thank you for your help with this.

--JoeBoxer70
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Posted by: KO Warriors
Date: Monday 6:55 PM

Also ... where I can I find the best parser?
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Posted by: KO Warriors
Date: Tuesday 9:35 AM

...
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Posted by: TBH Division San Diego
Date: Tuesday 6:10 PM

Scouting!

LoL what is scouting I hardly ever do it anymore as true scouting is very time consuming and when your mega gyming like I do lol its to much work.....

But you have a good grasp but you want to know how to narrow down a fighter to exact AP's.... This is tough and on somethings you just have to guess....

Conditioning is really a managers preference, here I scout a managers new fighters across the board and look for a patern IE do all of his brand new fighters make it through there first fight without getting tired (providing the fighters are flashers) if thats the case I assume the manager is a person that creates his fighters with 15 Con right off the bat...... Or when you scout a gym do you find his new fighters get tired.... This could be a manager that likes to cheat on Con in the begining maybe starts with around 10,11 or 12..... If its a person that likes to cheat he may have some fighters that can be exploited thru endurance or lack there of...... After awhile you know the tendencys of managers in your region without really having to look!

In my opinion though the most important form of scouting isnt AP's its the FP if you have a general Idea of his AP layout just be do a quick glance to see if he is a pure slugger dancer etc.... And you can figure out his FP too a tee by looking back at his fights and learning his conditionals you can find a way to trigger one too your advantage! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Flasher vs Flasher

Posted by: TOAs Gym
Date: Saturday 4:05 AM

What tactic would work best if its a Flasher Vs a Flasher? I'm the shorter fighter too. Just say he uses inside? Would it be best to use something like 2h/4/14 (clinch)? Or if he doesn't use inside what could i expect?


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Posted by: TOAs Gym
Date: Saturday 4:08 AM

The opponent from the bouts i've seen so far, has used these tactics in round one so far, allout-inside and clinch.
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Posted by: Malicious Intent (SoS)
Date: Saturday 7:02 AM

Ring?

I used (amature rules) at status 18 2h/4/14 (clinch) vs another flasher and got killed. Same with counter using 5h/10!/5 (counter)

If I were to fight those again I would go 5h/10!/5 (ring) or no style.


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Posted by: TOAs Gym
Date: Saturday 7:09 AM

MI!!! How's it going?~!!

Thanks for the advice, i've simmed a few different ways , 3 of 4 worked out in my favor~ looking good so far, just need to edit a few things around and see what happened!
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Posted by: ..Bixleys.[T].Joint.

.
Date: Saturday 11:04 AM

Since you are shorter, and you are looking for the best possible agility boosting style here, clinch is going to be that style.


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Posted by: Krankenhaus
Date: Saturday 11:06 AM

As an attacking possibility, 4h/8!/8 (feint) can also be appropriate, depending on your build. If your opponent always goes 5h/10/5 or 5h/11/4, your extra defense will make all the difference.



Clinchers

Posted by: [W.R] Global Boxing Inc.
Date: Monday 8:06 PM

Ok, first, I am not looking for freebie FP's and fighters. I have read in a dozen places about clinchers and how they are supposed to be one of the better fighter builds in WeBL. I can't get wins with them though. I get KO'd by the sluggers and outpointed by dancers and sissy's. If I go inside, not only do I lose, I take IP's like there is no tomorrow. What is the scoop on clinchers?

I usually build them very high STR, no KP, SPD = AGL no less than 10, and 12 CND. My height is usually very short and I go very heavy.

All, and I do mean all, opinions are appreciated.
Delete Post


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Posted by: Team Mediocre
Date: Monday 8:30 PM

well I haven't built a clincher in awhile, but 12 cnd seems low to me...unless your resting sometime throughout the fight. clinchers are supposed to wear the opp down. Your not going to win on pts against anyone.

all I can say is make sure your targeting the body and not actually trying to win on pts. check endurance....never go inside because your agility is probably too low to sustain inside, just use clinch still while lowering your defense and upping your pow.
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Posted by: [W.R] Global Boxing Inc.
Date: Monday 8:53 PM

The reason for the low CND is that using clinch, I usually don't tire that much. My opp is always just a bit more tired than me. I wonder how much you can lower your DEF before it gets too dangerous because the AGL on my clinchers isn't that high?
Delete Post


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Posted by: Concrete (WTA, Inc.)
Date: Monday 9:06 PM

If the sluggers are knocking you out from winning the endurance battle then it is because your CND is too low. I never go below 13 for a clincher.

Your main strategy should be to kick his ass to the body then knock him out late with 5H/10/5 (inside) or something like that. Use a scoring line a few times like 8/6/6 randomly between rounds 4 and 10 so you don't lose every round and allow your opp to run after round 8.
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Posted by: Fulgin Family
Date: Monday 9:11 PM

I like a 14 or 15 cnd for my clinchers... otherwise you cannot afford to slug for more than a few round wtih the opponent countering.

f.
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Posted by: The Noble Art
Date: Monday 9:49 PM

[W.R] Global Boxing Inc.
SPD = AGL is no kind of clincher to me, maybe some sort of slugger though. Read Complete Fighter - Clincher. When you are done head on over to the Fighter Factory and pick up some bad ass Clinchers. If you still can't win with clincher, mail me and I'll sort you out.

BTW My opp is always just a bit more tired than me. He supposed to be exhausted while you won't even need rest.....

//Thunder Brothers
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Posted by: Brass Knuckle Brigade
Date: Monday 9:56 PM

The Noble Art just gave you a very good link. It has the builds and a great fight plan. Definately tweak the fight plan because educated managers will spot this and take you out. It is great for beginning fights but if not tweaked it wont last. I have a good amount of clinchers and many have done very well, but there are many managers who know how to counter them.

Good luck, Brass Knuckle Brigade
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Posted by: [W.R] Global Boxing Inc.
Date: Monday 10:11 PM

Thanks for the op Noble. Will do. And I love the fighter factory! Thanks BKB for the advice on the FP's. I generally will only use published FP's as guidelines so as to not be so obvious to the better managers I accidentally run into from time to time.
Delete Post


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Posted by: ShinRa`s SOLDIER -NE Swarm-
Date: Monday 10:33 PM

Pure clinchers start with 12-13 cnd and end with 16-17.
Agile clinchers start with 13 agl and end with 17-18.

Spd should never = agl with pure clinchers, thats just duh. SPD=AGL are harder
to manage, yet most effective. Assuming you have correct stats. 30/26/26
Is not a winning fighter. 35/23/23 is. Chin, do whatever you want with that.
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Posted by: Dark Revelations from the Lotus Sutra (TBH)
Date: Tuesday 2:03 AM

for regionals, try STR = SPD x 1.5 = AGI x 2 start with 14 CND and end up with 16 by 18(18). 10 chn is enough
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Posted by: Invincible Iain (Double I)(TDC)
Date: Tuesday 5:35 AM

You dont need to start Clinchers with 14 Con, its a waste of AP's, I start most with 12 Con, sometimes 13, remember these are among the most efficiant fighters in the game, only Ropists are more efficiant (I also start Ropists with just 12 Con) as the stats are better used in other areas. Also remember from status 6 to status 28 you will take 12 random AP's, there is a good chance at least 4 of these will land on Con, sometimes more, and so starting at 14 probably leads to 18 or 19 Con on a Clincher at WT level which is just a waste of valuable AP's in most cases.

For the more Agile type Clinchers I like Speed = Agility at 2/3rd's of Strength, ie, at 28/28 you would have something like, 33/22/22 (obviously dependant on Height) Con at WT level id look for 16/17 and Chin probably 11 with not so many KP'ers around these days, allthough thats just personal choice.



High Conditioning by Albino


Posted by: ~Albino~
Date: Thursday 8:00 AM
high cond is viable, in fact i would say it increases you chance of winning, but as you say ips are an issue.

the trick is to use your high cond by using more agg and pow, and make your opponent follow you where he must get fatigued, but you dont.

6/6/8, 7/5/8, 8/4/8 and 8/5/7 are good tactics for high cond fighters. probably not in round 1, but definitely round 5 onwards. starting fights with 6B/6/8 is a very annoying way for a high cond fighters to start against his opps. the opponent will have difficulties winning rounds with getting fatigue while you stay relatively efficient and with no fatigue.

high cond most effective ability is the rest between rounds. more cond, means more lost endurance which means more endurance gained between rounds. you will get to the point where you can no longer get anymore tired as the endurance damage dealt = endurance gained by rest.

in short, win as many early rounds as you can without using agg high enough to get any fatigue. sit at your agg threshold as he tries to win rounds and gets badly fatigued. since the opp spends most of the fight trying to win back rounds, you take less damage. for high cond to be viable, you have to use it.


KP Sissies (from US South Forum)

Since I am starting to get more and more fighters into contenders I want to change up a little. My lower weight fighters have already been changed. My upper weight fighters have also been changed a little. Still using variations of a trusted fight plan. Could be a lot better. The questions as I start moving further up in contenders I would like some ideas of different lines I could use. The fighters in the upper class's are close to these stats.

Str 10-12 KP 3-4
spd 19-22 agl 16-19
chn 10-12 cond 14-16 normal to light build and 2-5 inches taller than opponents.

Those that have fought me know basically how I fight. any suggestions on diffent stratagies.

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Ash24
Junior Member
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Aug 16, 2005, 8:03pm, Stalkers wrote:Since I am starting to get more and more fighters into contenders I want to change up a little. My lower weight fighters have already been changed. My upper weight fighters have also been changed a little. Still using variations of a trusted fight plan. Could be a lot better. The questions as I start moving further up in contenders I would like some ideas of different lines I could use. The fighters in the upper class's are close to these stats.

Str 10-12 KP 3-4
spd 19-22 agl 16-19
chn 10-12 cond 14-16 normal to light build and 2-5 inches taller than opponents.

Those that have fought me know basically how I fight. any suggestions on diffent stratagies.



I may be a noob still to this game but I notice you use counter to try to KO a person, but I don't think I've ever seen you use it to go to the body. That's won alot of fights for me with my speed intensive fighters. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will tell me soon enough.

Morton's
Grand Poobah
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Ok, your fighters are KP Sissies/KP Counterpunchers.

What are your weaknesses? Where are you getting beat?

Do you see yourself failing when you flash by being counter KO'd? Personally, I'd like to see a little more chin. The old rule was CHN = 11+(.5 * KP) before the sim changed. Since you are not facing as much KP as you once were, havin an extra point in AGL would be to your benefit. 10+ (.5* CHN) is probably acceptable. In lower weights, use the first chin formula I mentioned.

10 STR will only damage an opponent if they are dropping defense drastically, so targetting body is possible, but you need to ensure your opponent is susceptible to the tactic. Targetting body is useful if you can be relatively sure the opp will do just that under certain circumstances.

In the past, I've done this to you. If I can get you to chase score, I will go hard to the body. It works, but you need to make the situation happen.

If you are only countering when you flash, then you probably have too much SPD as well. Bring the gap between SPD and AGL closer. Since you have the height advantage, you can use outside for scoring. Again, depends on your opponent. But, you've been having success, so your build is good for your FPs, tweak some builds and see if they are a better fit for the plan.
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Stalkers
Senior Member
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Thanks Mortons, I have changed fighters slightly and also added counter to the body. Has been working pretty good. Created a new plan today to try to get one of my fighters to 28/28. This would be my first 28/28 fighter. Getting closer to the world title shot.


Cuts


Posted by: Rockin Rods Ring Rebels (SoS)
Date: Friday 8:48 AM

1. Is there a particular style of fighter best suited for using cut lines with? (my fighter)

2. Is there a particular style of fighter best suited for using cut lines against? (opponent)

3.How late in a fight would you target cuts if your opponent has not been cut. Would it be worthwhile targetting a cut if he started round 10 with a cut?

4. What lines give most damage to cuts while not leaving youself to vunerable?

thanks/cheers RRRR Posted by: ShinRa`s SOLDIER -NE Swarm- (Aiming For #10)
Date: Friday 10:00 AM

1) Agile
2) Agiles and Ropists
3) No
4) 5H/11/4 to start cut, 6C/7/7 to aggrivate. Posted by: Fulgin Family
Date: Saturday 3:58 AM

1. Counterpuncher?

2. Clincher?

3. I like if hiscuts >= round for the early rounds and if > 2 for the overall conditional.

4. I like the 5H/11/4 to cause the cut, and the 5C/11/4 to make it worse.

f. Posted by: popagorgio`s GYM (EVIL EMPIRE)
Date: Saturday 10:40 AM

8C/4/8 really slices and dices. Posted by: Ivan Kafka`s Knights of the Ring (BPBL)
Date: Saturday 12:34 PM

1) clincher 2) clincher 3) No 4) 5H/11/4. 5C/11/4 (but never tested it) Posted by: Mean Streets
Date: Saturday 4:05 PM

1. Is there a particular style of fighter best suited for using cut lines with? (my fighter)

The fighters best suited to opening cuts and aggravating them are fighters who inflict high base damage. The cuts formula is based off base damage, which is why flashers open a lot of cuts in their fights. Obviously, you want to use a more efficient fighter to take advantage of continued cut targetting, but always bear in mind that STR and SPD are the 2 attributes used in that equation, and that AGG and POW play large factors.

2. Is there a particular style of fighter best suited for using cut lines against? (opponent)

The best type of fighter suited to being cut are, obviously, fighters who TAKE a lot of damage. The higher your opponent's AGL and DEF, the less likely you will open/aggravate a cut. Thus, you want to use cut lines on fighters with LOW agility.

3.How late in a fight would you target cuts if your opponent has not been cut. Would it be worthwhile targetting a cut if he started round 10 with a cut?

Both questions depend on how your fight is turning out. A. It's not worthwhile to target cuts if your opponent hasn't been cut at all, as targetting cuts is more beneficial than targetting head only for the aggravation effect. It would be worthwhile to target cuts late in a fight if you don't have a plausible chance at winning the fight and your opponent is cut enough to hope for a stoppage. Generally though, it's not worth it.

4. What lines give most damage to cuts while not leaving youself to vunerable?

Again, your vulnerability is totally dependent on the fight situation. It's not a wise choice to go 5C/11/4 early in a fight, because you could easily be KO'ed or get murdered in the endurance battle. It's not a question that can be answered without using pertinent example information.


Tracking rounds by THawk


Roundslost = X

Where as X is the amount of rounds you want to know you have lost, so a plan

Roundslost = 1 then 5/1/14;
Roundslost = 2 then 6/1/13;
Roundslost = 3 then 7/1/12;
Roundslost = 4 then 8/1/11;
Roundslost = 5 then 9/1/10;
Roundslost = 6 then 10/1/9;
Roundslost = 7 then 1/1/18;

Here you are getting more aggresive as you lose rounds, but once you have lost the fight you just give up and try to stop extra damage.

**Please note, Roundslost will only register if you have 97% certainty of losing the round. So technically you can lose a fight 120-108 but never actually be roundslost = 1 due to all 12 rounds being so close**

Another simple tracker is

Score < X

Again you will follow the score on the commentators card, Score can be followed with positive numbers for tracking winning, and negative numbers for rounds lost.
So the following plan:-

score < 0 then 5/1/14;
score < -1 then 6/1/13;
score < -2 then 7/1/12;
score < -3 then 8/1/11;
score < -4 then 9/1/10;
score < -5 then 10/1/9;
score < -6 then 1/1/18;

Again you will raise agression as you lose rounds and give up when you have fallen 7 rounds behind.

**Please note, this way is slightly risky as if you lose a round going 5/1/14, switch to 6/1/13 and win a round. You will resort back to the 5/1/14 tactic.**
Last Edit: Jun 27, 2008 at 4:52pm by Termit
Zamulacze <Evil Empire>
Termit
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King Of The WeBL Ring

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Posts: 32


Jun 27, 2008 at 4:32pm
Quote
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Post by Termit on Jun 27, 2008 at 4:32pm
CONT.

A more complicated way to track rounds lost, and is my favoured way is..

Score + X < round

Where X will be double the amount of rounds you have lost.
So for example

#I have lost 1 round
Score + 2 < round then
#I have lost 2 rounds
Score + 4 < round then
#I have lost 3 rounds
Score + 6 < round then

And this continues to such conditionals as

#I have lost 7 rounds and the fight
Score + 14 < round then

or even the very extreme

#I have lost ALL rounds
Score + 22 < round then
(Note its 22 and not 24 as you'd think with a 12 round fight, as you last check your plan going into the 12th and at the point you can only be down by 11 rounds )

This way is must better to track roundslost, as it also sticks for the entire fight, if you lose a round going 5/1/14, switch to 6/1/13 using the Score + 2 < round line, even if you win the round. You will stick to 6/1/13. endurance_percent > 100 - ((round - 1)*X)

This conditional can be the key to succesful slugging with any number of fighters, it is also used to gauge when is the best time to flash with other KP fighters.